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The next £75+£7 Monthly £10000 Guaranteed at Grosvenor Hill St will be on Sunday 26th November
Broadway Birmingham will hold their next £7500 GTD £100+£10 Monthly Freezeout on Wednesday 29th November
Grosvenor Birmingham Hill St runs their Monthly £50 with a £6000 Guarantee on the second Saturday of each month
Stoke Genting will hold their next £50+£5 Monthly Special with a £4000 guarantee on Sunday 3rd December
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Panfried
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Old Fashioned Poker ?

on 2016-03-26, 08:20
Some interesting remarks from Rob Yong:




Today, partypoker are experimenting with “Pure Poker Wednesdays”. All $5.50, $22 and $109 MTTs are Freezeouts, including the $50K Uppercut, $20K Contender and $10K Jab and will use the WPT Main Event structure – which I consider to be the best MTT structure; 30,000 chips, starting at 50-100, with 25 antes kicking in at Level 3 (75-150-25). I define the “best MTT structure” as the highest big blind average from start to finish of an MTT [regardless of the length of clock]. Poker structures are something I have studied and analysed for the last 10 years – let’s look why MTTs don’t play as well as they used to, both online and live;

Re-Entry
Re-Entry has extended late registration, live this can be as low as 20BBs, some online sites allow 10BBs, partypoker allow 20BBS. This is to generate more re-entries, as the majority of players will bust between level 6 to 12 of a typical structure. This means players that can afford to re-enter make unconventional plays and therefore the MTT behaves more like a re-buy during the late registration period. Whilst this can give value to solid players, players who can’t afford to re-enter [but do] end up shortening their bankroll life cycle and re-entries  join the MTTs with lower BBs than the average. This is further compounded by players who wish to avoid the gamble of the re-entry period by registering late, forcing the BB average down further. Many poker operators/staff claim proudly that they invented the ‘re-entry concept’, but the plain truth is that re-entry was created by accident when Simon Trumper played a $100 tourney at Caesars and a player who had busted but had won a free entry into tomorrow’s $100 MTT, was allowed in error to enter the same MTT twice. I am against re-entry, however I recognise that for multi day live Day 1s or multi time zone online Day 1s, allowing players to re-enter into the next Day 1 doesn’t affect the BB average. I also appreciate that players don’t like to run their KK into AA or set over set in level 1 and be out with nothing to do, especially after a long trip to a live event. An old format called Double Chance solves this issue where players have the choice to start with 50% of their chips stack and DTD have added a Super 50 Double Chance to Sunday nights in the club.

Late Registration
There is an accelerating trend to extend late reg even longer to generate more re-entries and every single possible late entrant into the prizepool to make the GTE, late registration is being offered into Day 2 of multi day MTTs, and I saw recently an MTT that was advertising late reg into Day 3! This crucifies the BB average for the MTT. DTD was the first to offer late registration, the reason being that myself and Nick were turned away from a Casino for being 2 minutes late and vowed that we would open our own poker club that would permit late registration. I am favour of sensible late registration, but not past 50BBs [eg. 30,000 chips at 300/600] which avoids the average BB being too adversely affected.

Antes
Over the last 10 years, poker structures have had extra levels added as players have demanded a deeper longer experience. This has caused fewer players to be knocked out at each level and created the ‘hanging on by your fingernails syndrome’, for example, 250-500 is now common place in even the lower buy-in events. Adding levels gives more play, but to make sure the average BB is not reduced because of fewer players busting, the antes must be more aggressive and start earlier so that the CPR [cost per round] increases at the correct rate, antes should ideally start from level 1 when the starting stack is 200BB or higher. Online has followed Live structures, adding in these extra levels, but often antes don’t kick in until Level 6+ and the online standard is 10% of the BB, so the online MTT turns into a crapshoot later on.

Starting Chips
By increasing starting stacks [v BBs] we have encouraged the trend of pre flop 3-bet, 4-bet and 5-bet – does anyone really feel this is more enjoyable than playing the flop, turn and river? Players could not make as many of these moves early on if they just started with 200BBs [e.g. old WSOP structure 10,000 chips starting at 25-50]. I would like to see a return to 200Bs starting stacks, it would be perfect to take the first 2 levels out of the WPT structure, so players start with 30,000 chips at 75-150 with a 25 ante. DTD have introduced this for the club’s weekly £100 2 day event, and this has allowed us to extend the clock from 30 to 40 mins, this MTT will play better than any other live MTT on the planet.

Time Banks / Shot Clocks
Every time players waste time making decisions this reduces the average BB in an MTT. Whether they are imitating Tom Dwan, listening to Spotify or watching a stream on their iPad, this reduces the number of hands dealt per level and therefore the average BB – as well as winding other players up. I would like to see every live MTT have a shot clock [DTD currently operates a shot clock on all MTTs with 25 min clock or less] and a full review of online MTT time banks.

Clocks
Players work their asses off for hours and often end up in all-in flips near the money and throughout the remainder of the MTT if they survive each all-in. Many of the reasons this happens are addressed above, but this is a massive complaint universally by poker players which could be addressed by using a progressive clock. For example, live could be 30 mins Day 1, 40 mins Day 2, online equivalent could be 16 levels of 12 mins. then 16 mins thereafter [online MTTs on average will deal 2.5 x more than live]. This can be calibrated for every format and size of buy-in. Of course, this would mean a reduced late registration period and therefore increase the risk of overlays. We’ve introduced the progressive clock to the GPPT events, with a 30 min clock on our standard Day 1 flights and a 40 minute clock on Day 2. Similarly the Online GPPT will be 12 minute clocks for Day 1s and a 16 minute clock for Day 2.

Turbos
I love turbos but they have a lower average BB than a normal MTT because fewer hands are dealt per level and therefore often turn in crapshoots. One simple adjustment to improve the quality of turbos is to make them 6-Max. For example, an online MTT 8 min clock 6-Max would get dealt same number of hands as a full ring 12 min clock, so the big blind average and player experience would be the same. At the $250,000 GPPT in Leeds, we have included a 6-Max Day 1 with a 20 min clock, which will play as well as the full ring 30 min version, and for the $500,000 Gtd GPPT Online Leg, partypoker have included a 6-Max with an 8 minute clock which will play as well as the 12 min full ring online Day 1s.

Summary
Poker growth online and live is stagnant at best, we as operators can help by improving the player experience by not just structuring MTTs to hit our guarantees, we have to factor other elements into what makes an enjoyable and rewarding MTT. Fact; any operator who goes down this route will take some nose-bleeds on the journey because re-entry pads the prize pools, extending late reg does the same, introducing shot clocks /reduced time banks will be met with opposition from some players, reducing clocks in the early levels will reduce late reg, reducing starting stacks [X BBs] will be met with some opposition as will introducing antes from the start – many players have simply been conditioned that they should have every possible chance to remain in an MTT for as long as possible – and get back in if they bust out!

But the knock on effect is that MTT player experiences have deteriorated – MTTs are longer, less fair to lower bankrolls and there are more crapshoot situations. This results in MTTs being less enjoyable and encouraging less new players into the game. My view is that positive adjustments can be made slowly by both the live and online poker industry. Of course at DTD, I often make them straight away, get a massive nose-bleed doing my coconuts on the GTE, but I know I am doing the right thing for the long term benefit of DTD and the game we love.

If you know me and agree with some of my views, please give maximum support to partypoker on Pure Poker Wednesdays which start today on the site.

Keep The Faith

Rob
 

Quoted from RY`s blog here:

http://robyongsblog.com/2016/03/23/pure-poker-or-old-fashioned-poker/

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Panfried
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Re: Old Fashioned Poker ?

on 2016-03-26, 08:32
I also am a student of tournament structures.  Some of you will know that I routinely turn up at a tournament with a print-out of the structure in my pocket, having looked closely at it beforehand.  I don`t mind playing a fast structure where appropriate (for example - in a satellite), but I always like to know what I am getting into before the game starts and to think about how the structure may affect my hand selection and my general level of aggression both pre- and post-flop.

I must say I agree with RY about ridiculously long late-reg periods.  My personal opinion is that all that`s necessary is an hour for the benefit of any players who may have been delayed on the way to the cardroom.

What do you think, about this or about any of RY`s other points ?

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mike ramsay
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Re: Old Fashioned Poker ?

on 2016-03-27, 09:47
^^^^^^^^^^^^

Agree panfried

IMHO the guarantees and overlays drive all of the re-entry and add on activity.

There is a "finite" ( to a degree) amount of poker entry fee spend. Therefore guarantees and competition for it is counterproductive as it only steals market share and does not increase the size of the market.

For me, it would be great if every weekend (starting Thursday) there was a decent structure £50 to £150 buyin tourney. If the poker rooms shared it around and stopped competing with crazy guarantees and focussed on providing a guaranteed decent tournament then it would be better for the game. I often have a slot in the diary but can not find a decent structure game.

I would prefer to pay higher reg fees for the right tourney. Yes even £100 (+£30) if that is what it takes. You are getting heating, facilities, parking, dealers, drinks for reg fee.

Heading to the beast this afternoon!!!! Thank goodness there are re entries lol!
deadlyscfc
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Re: Old Fashioned Poker ?

on 2016-03-28, 09:29
The best tourneys when i started were all freezeouts and pot limit to which there was a lot more skill and thought and you could actually use your brain to play. There is no skil to shoving all in every hand orlike regularly happens in comps blinds as low as 25/50 and some one raising 3k straightaway.it just leads to crap shoot poker.Cash games are the same and are no longer enjoyable and i don,t think i have seen so much argiung and falling out at tables as i have over the last 3/4 years.Remember a player at Stoke lost his eye in an argument over a £70 bet in a 1-1 cash game,when there was only £2 in the pot.
I was at a comp at weekend when blinds were 100/200 and the first raise as 36k,worst of it 4 others called or went all in for no other reason than the pot was big.No skill in that whatsoever,it led to a very heated discussion between 3 of them which carried on outside and 2 players being barred.one of whom is a very mild mannered guy who has really had enough of the game and the way it has gone.By the way the original raiser had kk.the 3 callers Q7 Off.K2 spades,7,9 off and a pair of 3s.k2 won with a flush.The original raiser claimed he raised so much because it was the only way to narrow the number of callers,because he knows what idiots play the game,so he would rather pick up 3 hundred than run the risk of out draw.He was proved right and called by invaluable hands,which in thoery you don,t mind, but we all know the inevitable outcome when 4 are in the pot.The pair of 3s said he called for value the others because they knew there was a re-entry.However 3 of them had well above starting stack and did not understand the concept that threy are re-entering for less chips than they had in front of them.It was a 2 day event the comp is not won on day 1.Incidentall the guy with the 3s had 120k in chips and continued to call every raise or raise pots and never made the 2nd break of level 8.
I believe the internet and tv have bred this monster which is getting out of control.
deadlyscfc
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Re: Old Fashioned Poker ?

on 2016-03-28, 13:33
Another big bug bear,is registration. At Genting if you pre register in advance, a couple of days before,you do not get your bonus chip unless you are in the building.However,as happened recently,two people rang up to say they were held up in traffic and would be late for the start,even though theyn had paid in one week before. on arrival their bonus trip had been withdrawn. Yet several plyers who had registered minutes before had started with an advantage.in fact 4 players got the bonus chips and went back home and came back at the break,At one time card rooms were grateful for you to register early and would bend over backwards to help you.but now they don,t care and you are just a punter and not part of a customer friendly atmosphere anymore.We are no longer a man but just a number
Also on registration if you have paid in advance and are late you are blinded out.Yet the player who turns up when he feels like it, still sits down with a full starting stack.It used to be that a round of blinds were taken out if you registered late.Also Grosvenor for a while kept your seat if you had pre reg and when you did sit down you were still given your starting stack.but that was scrapped.
maybe the answer is to stop all late reg and play freezouts,which are pot limit.Oh yes that was how the game used to be
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